Shit Eaters part deux

[abo]

If the federal government shouldn't be running any form of healthcare, then who would pay for veterans' healthcare, especially long term injuries that occur during their service?

That's an excellent point.

A public option isn't the federal government being in charge of healthcare, it's the federal government putting an end to a climate in which the size of your pocketbook determines what kind of medical care you can receive.

That's a poor point.

And as for what I voted for ... what state do you live in? I live in Arizona, where the republican legislature is holding us hostage because they can't release the deathgrip they have on the party line. Where the governor repealed the ban on public education programs that were proven over and over again to be ineffective.

I live in the Beehive state. It's nice to discuss this with you, hopefully I'll be back tomorrow.

[Jonas]

And what's with all the hate on the post office? Even though postage goes up (as everything else does), you can drop an envelope in the mail and for less than $.50 it will get anywhere in the country. When you need to get something sent across the country next day before 10am, FedEx is fine, albeit expensive. If FedEx and UPS were the only options, everyday mail would be WAY more expensive. And UPS still breaks shit and delivers packages to the wrong address.

The USPS is a government run monopoly. According to the Lawful Private Carriage provision in the Private Express Statutes, the only legal way for a private company to deliver first class mail is to pay for US postage in addition to the fee they charge. The only exception is for extremely urgent letters, which according to 39 cfr 320.6 must cost at least 3 dollars or twice the cost of first class or priority mail, which ever is higher. It is in this limited exception that FedEx and UPS have capitalized on, getting you your shit faster and more consistently. FedEx has done such a good job at this that USPS outsources their mail to them.

You're wrong.

You can't have a private first class mail carrier, see Spooner vs. U.S. Postal System. Spooner's American Letter Mail Company had free local delivery and 5 cent stamps at a time the USPS charged 12. He was shut down.

[speedy1600]

I am both an Arizona resident and a veteran. Have you been inside a VA facility? Have you waited for hours to get sub par treatment? I have. I have also seen WWII vets get yelled at by some fat fuck working on a computer inside the VA. Recently, hundreds of vets got HIV from treatment in a VA facility. Don't tell me about gov't health care and veteran services. If you actually read a single post, you would see we agree with Gov't regulation in health care. The gov't can put an end to this by taking regulatory measures. A public option is not necessary to fix health care. All it will do is make people reliant on the gov't to get health care. That is not a solution and is sure is hell not something you want to bet your life on. And don't forget, people will still have to pay, it is not a free ride. If you cannot afford the public option you might actually be taxed for not having insurance if this plan passes.

If you think Arizona is bad, look to your liberal haven California and you can see America's future. Arizona is 2 - 3 billion in debt. California is what? 23 billion? I cannot wait to see THAT havoc. Pelosi for prez!!!

[joy]

So waiting for medical care is worse than not having any? Wow. We'll just have to agree to disagree then. My comment about the existance of the VA was in response to the idea that the government should not ever be in charge of providing healthcare coverage.

[speedy1600]

Did I ever say that? It was an example to demonstrate the shittiness of gov't care. You refuse to read the parts where I say i agree with health care reform. Arguing with you is like arguing with a dining room table.

[abo]

So waiting for medical care is worse than not having any? Wow. We'll just have to agree to disagree then. My comment about the existance of the VA was in response to the idea that the government should not ever be in charge of providing healthcare coverage.

I'm back. The only thing that I have to say is that there is no agreement on disagreement. You are wrong.

[joy]

A public option isn't the federal government being in charge of healthcare, it's the federal government putting an end to a climate in which the size of your pocketbook determines what kind of medical care you can receive.

That's a poor point.

what planet do you live on?

Speedy1600 - not everything is directly about you. If you didn't say that, it might have been abo. I don't really care. I'm glad you caught the daily show though, I thought that was amusing too.

[joy]

So waiting for medical care is worse than not having any? Wow. We'll just have to agree to disagree then. My comment about the existance of the VA was in response to the idea that the government should not ever be in charge of providing healthcare coverage.

I'm back. The only thing that I have to say is that there is no agreement on disagreement. You are wrong.

yawn

I hope you aren't unfortunate enough to lose your job and your medical coverage, whatever you're swinging. And opinions aren't wrong, they're just different.

[pander]

First, why is health care so strongly tied to employment? Never made sense to me..

Second, while I usually support letting capitalism take care of things, in the case of health care I think there absilutely needs to be a socialistic system in place. Letting the free market take care of healthcare has sucked for anyone too poor to pay for quality care. There has to at least be a part of the system NOT out to make money that will provide care to those who can't afford it.

[RockPharmer]

#1- i don't actually read all this stuff. well, not since the flip flop discussion got derailed.

#2 - i spent the past 5 years teaching at a state school that has one the most successful and sought-after pharmacy programs in new england. i don't have any ivory towers up my ass. yet.

#3 - i pull all my sound bites from the daily show not the prez

[pmahnn]

RockPharmer - I love that you bring up this talking point the president made about ups, fedex, and usps. Do you remember what he said? It is the GOVERNMENT RUN Postal service that is having problems in day to day operations. IT is the one that has financial problems. Not a single news channel reported this obvious blunder.

Jon Stewart did.

[Jonas]

And what's with all the hate on the post office? Even though postage goes up (as everything else does), you can drop an envelope in the mail and for less than $.50 it will get anywhere in the country. When you need to get something sent across the country next day before 10am, FedEx is fine, albeit expensive. If FedEx and UPS were the only options, everyday mail would be WAY more expensive. And UPS still breaks shit and delivers packages to the wrong address.

The USPS is a government run monopoly. According to the Lawful Private Carriage provision in the Private Express Statutes, the only legal way for a private company to deliver first class mail is to pay for US postage in addition to the fee they charge. The only exception is for extremely urgent letters, which according to 39 cfr 320.6 must cost at least 3 dollars or twice the cost of first class or priority mail, which ever is higher. It is in this limited exception that FedEx and UPS have capitalized on, getting you your shit faster and more consistently. FedEx has done such a good job at this that USPS outsources their mail to them.

You're wrong.

You can't have a private first class mail carrier, see Spooner vs. U.S. Postal System. Spooner's American Letter Mail Company had free local delivery and 5 cent stamps at a time the USPS charged 12. He was shut down.

Just because a private company was able to charge less than the USPS over 150 years ago, doesn't necessarily make it true today. And just because a private company starts out with cheaper prices doesn't mean they'll always be cheaper, especially once they become the big guy in town. Who's to say UPS and Fedex could ship letters cheaper than USPS even if they didn't have to pay the postage fee? It's a hypothetical. You haven't done the math. You don't know. So telling Joy, "You're wrong." is an ignorant statement and a cheap debating tactic. Maybe if you would have worked for UPS, you'd know how they treat letters -- like frisbees tossed at random into a pile of boxes in a trailer. That's the truth.

The implication of Joy's post was that a government option provides competition, keeping prices low. This can be true and ideally will be, should we create more government run businesses. However, the example she cited was not only inaccurate, it was proof of the opposite.

In regards to the fatuous statements you bring to the table...at the end of the day, it doesn't even matter if a private sector company could do it cheaper. It is illegal for them to do it cheaper.

In a time when the more expensive private sector options were still able to post profits, the compulsory USPS is planning on shutting down post offices and stopping Saturday delivery to make up for being 2.8 billion dollars in the red.

Finally, this notion that telling someone that they are wrong is a cheap debating tactic...no. You're confusing wrong with stupid or liar. Wrong is a declaration delivered with the same strength as when joy opines

If FedEx and UPS were the only options, everyday mail would be WAY more expensive.

Clearly, she has no way of knowing this. It is an assumption based on an incomplete observation. It's not right.

[speedy1600]

If you really get your sound bites from the daily show, that is fucking sad. He cuts and combines way too many clips to make opposing people and ideas seem stupid. It is unbelievable that people actually get their news from him

[Bug]

or FOX for that matter

[pmahnn]

It's unbelievable that you actually believe people get their news from him.

[joy]

If FedEx and UPS were the only options, everyday mail would be WAY more expensive.

Clearly, she has no way of knowing this. It is an assumption based on an incomplete observation. It's not right.

I'm comparing the price of mailing say, a bill or anything else that weighs little enough to cost only one stamp. You take a couple letters and send one UPS, one FedEx, and one USPS, and USPS is the cheapest choice, but they all get there. My point was NOT that the existance of the USPS brings costs down by creating competition, but that a cheap, basic option does not put companies out of business by offering rates so low that private corporations CAN'T compete with their prices.

[joy]

If you really get your sound bites from the daily show, that is fucking sad. He cuts and combines way too many clips to make opposing people and ideas seem stupid. It is unbelievable that people actually get their news from him

If people are getting their news from the Daily Show (or the Colbert Report, etc), then yes, that is sad. However, I view those shows as the Harry Potter of current events. If the Daily Show gets people to pay attention to what's going on, that's a good thing. And you have to already know what they're talking about to really get all of it.

[Jonas]

If FedEx and UPS were the only options, everyday mail would be WAY more expensive.

Clearly, she has no way of knowing this. It is an assumption based on an incomplete observation. It's not right.

I'm comparing the price of mailing say, a bill or anything else that weighs little enough to cost only one stamp. You take a couple letters and send one UPS, one FedEx, and one USPS, and USPS is the cheapest choice, but they all get there. My point was NOT that the existance of the USPS brings costs down by creating competition, but that a cheap, basic option does not put companies out of business by offering rates so low that private corporations CAN'T compete with their prices.

Did you skip my first post?

[joy]

No, I read it, but it's kind of irrelevant because your response was really based on a point I never made. To your point: even in the presence of a monopoly, private enterprise thrives. As for I can never know if actually eliminating the USPS would or wouldn't lower costs for mail, the exact same thing can be said for healthcare. So if you were ultimately trying to support my point that a public option can't be proven to be a bad thing for this country, you did. Because we can't know if we've never actually experienced it.

[Jonas]

My point was NOT that the existance of the USPS brings costs down by creating competition, but that a cheap, basic option does not put companies out of business by offering rates so low that private corporations CAN'T compete with their prices.

The USPS is not an example of a cheap basic option that doesn't put private companies out of business. It did put companies out of business and keeps them out of business with a series of federal regulations aimed specifically at not allowing competition.

Having to pay 44 cents (the total cost to send a letter first class) to the government for each letter and having to pay taxes before they can even start to charge for their actual expenses, sets a private company at an extreme disadvantage. It's why there isn't a private first class mail carrier. The existence of FedEx and UPS aren't proof of the opposite of this. As mentioned above, those companies exist in a loophole.

You've been regulated out of a private first class mail option. It's not the end of the world. It's also not something to hold up as an example of innocuous government meddling.